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Now, an exclusive coming up next, Harry Belafonte. Don't go away. (COMMERCIAL
BREAK) KING:
First, for openers, we thank Harry Belafonte for giving us this time
exclusively. Second, to also inform you that I've known Harry Belafonte
for over 40 years. I've also known Colin Powell for well over 12 years,
consider both friends. Harry Belafonte needs no defender. His work in
activism in well noted, but I will tell you that I was with him in Miami
Beach when he became the first black to stay at a Miami Beach hotel. He
was a close friend of Martin Luther King, worked as a humanitarian, won
numerous prizes, including a Nelson Mandela Courage Award. He has -- he
brought together performers like Michael Jackson and Bruce Springsteen,
was responsible for "We are the World." His work with troubled
youth, President Kennedy named him a cultural adviser to the Peace Corps.
The list could go on and on. Harry
Belafonte doesn't need anybody talking about his credit, but he did
surprise many of his friends and followers with a statement on a San Diego
radio station. Let's listen to that statement. (BEGIN
AUDIO CLIP) HARRY
BELAFONTE, ACTIVIST:
There's an old saying in the days of slavery.
There are those slaves who lived on the plantation, and there were
those slaves who lived in the house. You got the privilege of living in
the house if you served the master. Colin Powell was permitted to come
into the house of the master. (END
AUDIO CLIP) KING:
All right, Harry, what did you mean? BELAFONTE:
First of all, let me hasten to say, Larry, that this was never meant to be
a personal attack on Colin Powell's character. What
it was meant, however, to be was an attack on policy, and the reference
and the metaphor used about slavery -- it is my personal feeling that
plantations exist all over America. If you walk into South Central Los Angeles,
into Watts, or you walk into Over-the-Rhine in Cincinnati, you'll find
people who live lives that are as degrading as anything that slavery had
ever produced. They live in economic oppression, they live in a
disenfranchised way. In the hearts and minds of those people, and millions
of others, you're always looking for hope, and whenever somebody
within our tribe, within our group, emerges that has the position of
authority and power to make a difference in the way business is done, our
expectations run high. Many
times, those expectations are not fulfilled. But when such an individual
is in the service of those who not only perpetuate the oppression, but
sometimes design the way in which it is applied, it then becomes very,
very, very, very critical that we raise our voices and be heard. And... KING:
I'm sorry, I don't mean -- isn't it possible, Harry, one, that Colin Powell,
who has stood up for his country, fought for his country, may have
disagreed in counsel, but supports his president in a tough time of need
-- why compare that to being -- as a slave? BELAFONTE:
Because, I think, to a great degree, that which governs us is
really the extent to which we are permitted by the forces of power in this
country to do what it is we can do to make a difference. The
civil rights movement was a huge struggle against an enormous opposition.
You know, many people who lived under that tenet and what we had to
do to try to position people in high places to make a difference so we
could change the way in which our democracy functioned was part of the
game. And
Colin Powell is in that position. And I do believe that the policies that
have been expressed by the administration he serves are less than
honorable. It is not just about what I say. Last
year, in South Africa, the United Nations under Kofi Annan gave us an
excellent opportunity in convening the International Conference on Racism
directed by a woman of remarkable credentials, the former president of
Ireland, Mary Robinson. There was a place where the United States should
have been in attendance, and given us the benefit of thought on a very
grievous set of conditions that affect the human family -- the issue of
race. And in that instance, the United States government sought to
turn its back on the thousands of people who were gathered there to make a
difference. And Colin Powell was the point person on that distancing of
our country. You know... KING:
What did you want him to do? What do you want him to do? BELAFONTE:
I would like him to live up to a higher moral standard. You know, Jeffords
doesn't have to be the only one who sits in disagreement with the policies
of this country and this government and acts upon it out of conscience. KING: But can't Colin Powell have a belief that the Iraqi situation is the administration's point of view, is correct and agree with its principles without giving up his own -- you're assuming that he's going against his principles. Maybe they are his principles. BELAFONTE:
Well, if they are his principles, then I sit opposed to them. I have
to make the assumption that it's not his principles because of what he
said (UNINTELLIGIBLE) at the Republican National Convention when he gave
that remarkable speech. Or when he said going through the United Nations
as the vehicle through which this problem should be settled. To do
anything less than that and to stick to that mandate I think is a sellout. KING:
So you think he is selling -- has he disappointed you, then? BELAFONTE:
Yes. You know, unfortunately. He has. As I said before earlier, we have
high expectations. Necessarily for those who come from color, who come
from a history of oppression, or at least an understanding of it. And what
we would hope is that people who come from that experience would use it
effectively to change the way in which others do business in the world of
oppression.
KING:
Do you have the same views about Condoleezza Rice? |
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BELAFONTE: Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. Even more so. Because I've never heard from Condoleezza Rice even the suggestion towards some of the more lenient thoughts or some of the more appropriate thoughts that Colin Powell has expressed. |
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Condoleeza Rice |
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BELAFONTE:
Colin Powell is not a victim here. Let's get that straight. Colin Powell
is a individual, he's a man of enormous resources, he has an enormous
intelligence, he has that agenda. What is that agenda, Colin? I mean, you
know, you speak about the disenfranchised, you speak about the fairness of
race. You speak about democracy. Everything that is in your
administration'spolicy runs contrary to that fact. KING:
And Condoleezza -- you feel the same way. So if you were them, you would
quit. BELAFONTE:
If I was them, I would use the platform to speak out against the
ill-advised policies of the administration. I would go as far as inviting
to be
fired, if that's what happens. You
know, Colin Powell's on the brink of being nominated for presidency of
this country. Obviously, he's held in high esteem. He doesn't have to
grovel to anyone. You know,
nor do I suggest that that's necessarily what he's doing. Maybe his agenda
is that of the president's. He often says that he serves them with great
pride and with great passion. That's unfortunate. KING:
In retrospect, were your remarks a bit harsh by going into a comparison to
slavery? To making him appear like, well, put it frankly, Uncle Tom? BELAFONTE:
Well, I think those who have the capacity and the courage to make a
difference by doing bold things, who refuse to apply that condition, are
more often suspect of selling out than they are of standing brave and courageous
as others have done. You
know, I didn't refer to him as an Uncle Tom. I said, those who sit in the
service of the house and those who sit in the service of those who
languish on the plantation. America has many plantations, even today. Not
only in America, those plantations sit in many places around the world,
where I've seen people suffer. I
work for the United Nations. I go to places where enormous upheaval and
pain and anguish exist. And a lot of it exists based upon American policy.
Whom we support, whom we support as heads of state, what countries we've
helped to overthrow, what leaders we've helped to diminish because they
did not fit the mold we think they should fit, no matter how ill advised
that thought may be. It is not without reason that I make my observation. KING:
Harry, I want you to just spend a moment watching Colin Powell's response
when I asked him about your remarks on our show about ten days ago.
Here's Colin. (BEGIN
VIDEO CLIP) COLIN
POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE:
If Harry had wanted to attack my politics, that was fine. If he wanted to
attack a particular position I hold, that was fine. But to use a slave
reference I think is unfortunate and is a throwback to another time and
another place that I wish Harry had thought twice about using. (END
VIDEO CLIP) KING:
Want to comment? BELAFONTE:
Yes. Let me first of all tell you, Larry, slavery is a noble part of black
history. It's an anguished part of this country's history. Most of who and
what we are was shaped during the period of slavery. Our forefathers,
those who were courageous and noble enough to resist tyranny, shaped their
thoughts during slavery. And
the plantations were a difficult place on which to live and to work.
There's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong to talk about the
plantation and to throw back to the time of slavery. Why not? It's part of
our history. As a matter of fact, we've forgotten it much too quickly and
much too easily. KING:
But it was obviously you hurt him, Harry. There was pain in him because he
obviously admires you a great deal. You're one of the greater entertainers
of all time. You both have a Jamaican heritage. He must have felt a
closeness to you. he had to be -- I mean don't you feel bad that you hurt
him? BELAFONTE:
I still feel closely to Colin Powell. I'd still like to reach for him.
He's not the first person in office who has eluded us or presented an
opportunity to do some good that we thought we could never have. Bobby
Kennedy, was when he first came into office, somebody that we looked at
with enormous anguish and suspicion because we didn't feel that he
understood the struggles of black people in this country. And our task was
to reach to him and to provoke him and to push him until he became a human
being who was awakened to the cause of the peoples of this country who sit
disenfranchised and who were living in oppression in a very violent time
in our nation, when racism was legal. And look at what happened to him by
the end of his life because those of us who spoke out awakened him to
understand that what he's doing is not acceptable. KING:
We'll be right back with more of Harry Belafonte. We'll include some phone
calls. Mr. Belafonte, thankfully enough also still entertains. Appears in
concert frequently and is welcomed wherever he goes. This is a very
fascinating discussion which I hope you find as interesting as I do. We'll
take a break and come back. Dominick Dunne joins us tomorrow night. More
with Harry Belafonte after this. (COMMERCIAL
BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) |
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| WILLIAM
J. CLINTON, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES:
Today he continues to bring art and activism together to inspire all of us
to live our lives with passion and with concern for others. Ladies and
gentlemen, please join me in congratulating Harry Belafonte. |
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Bill Clinton |
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BELAFONTE:
It was the National Medal for the Arts. It was given to me by President
Clinton. And I was very honored to receive it. KING:
You've also been critical of President Clinton at times. BELAFONTE:
Yes, I have. What's wrong
with criticism? What's wrong with the voice of dissent? What's wrong with
another point of view? That's what America is built on. And I want to tell
you something -- the minute we lose that right and that capacity to do
that, we've lost our soul as a nation. KING:
You would not change the statement? BELAFONTE:
No. I would perhaps put it in a context that would be a little bit more --
like the opportunity you're giving me now to put it in a context, but in
essence, I wouldn't change the statement. KING:
But Colin Powell has been a voice in the Republican party for moderation.
Many didn't like his views on abortion, he's pro- choice. He certainly has
stood up for affirmative action. He had a lot to do with integration in
the military service. He has been a bulwark to black people in America,
who look for -- as you looked for -- you looked for the Martin Luther
Kings and others -- who look for people who are example of leadership.
And this administration, while it's being wrapped, has a secretary
of state who is black and a National Security Adviser who is black. That's
never happened before. BELAFONTE:
You're still dealing with the personality of the man. What I'm dealing
with are the issues about the policies that he serves. That's what this is
about. We're getting ready to
go to war. American boys and girls are going to be dead on some foreign
battlefield again. In a place that all advice doesn't suggest that it's
the best move we could make. That's a serious, serious concern for the
citizens of this country. It
is about the policy, Larry. It's not about the man. I like Colin Powell. I
like his West Indian background. I like his intellect. I like a lot of
things that he does and his style. What is at fault here is a policy
that's taking this country to hell. You
know, to quote Shakespeare these days is not the most popular thing, that
not a lot of artists can do, but I would say to you, that in the closing
act of "King Lear," the character says, "'Tis the time's
plague when the – when mad men lead the blind.'" And
I tell you, there's madness that's in the world today and what even
exacerbates the problem is that nowhere do you hear voices of reason
coming to the table with ideas and thoughts that could change the scenario
because they're not given the opportunity to be here.
Amelia Robinson whom I just mentioned, she was one of the leading
voices in the United Nations. We worked tenaciously to getting her
dismissed and now she's gone. Why? KING:
Isn't one of the classic examples of madness in the world Saddam Hussein? BELAFONTE:
Absolutely. No question. KING:
So what do you do about him? BELAFONTE:
Go through the United Nations and follow the Council and the principles
of the international family. That's what we do about it. Stop bullying the
world. Stop saying, That you do it our way or no way counts. That is not
civil. KING:
And if the United Nations says we will take military action, you then support
it? BELAFONTE:
Yes. If the United Nations decides to take action, then I would stand by
the United Nations. KING:
On -- by the way, where were you on 9/11? BELAFONTE:
On another channel, getting ready to launch a work that I had just done. I
was on NBC and just about to go down to the World Trade Center for
breakfast. Had the incident happened just an hour later, I might very well
have been one of its victims. KING:
All right. Now, the world changed that day, Harry, you had to admit that.
We can't sit around -- I mean, it may be fine to say that this is what
we're based on, but we're a nervous nation. And when you're nervous and
when there's a threat of -- look what's going on in Washington, Maryland
and Virginia now, you have to act in ways that may not be standard with
the morality and the history of this country. But we've never faced this
before. Isn't that just being realistic? BELAFONTE:
I challenge that our only option to conduct that is new to us,that
is villainous, is to do something that's immoral. I don't buy that. I
don't buy that at all. I think there are a lot of ways in which these
situations can be dealt with and should be dealt with. KING:
So you don't think we have to change anything? We could just go on as we
have? BELAFONTE:
Oh no. I think we have to change a lot. Mostly, how we helpedbreed
the playing ground in which a lot of thinking tyranny comes out of. Our
hands are not clean, Larry. There
are nations all over this globe that suffer from policies that we have
implemented. People go away bitter with a great sense of loss and families
are destroyed. Terror isn't
only our experience. Terror is experienced by people all over the place
and we have helped instigate some of it. KING:
How about those who say, let's say, Condoleezza Rice is a classic example
of how we've come a long way. Here's a woman who 30 years ago wouldn't
have made a dent. She goes to professor at Stanford, she's a National
Security Adviser in the administration.
You may disagree with her policies, but wouldn't you say, you've
come a long way? BELAFONTE:
Absolutely. There's no question we've come a long way. Nobody dismisses
that. That does not, however, diminish how far it is we still have to go.
And just evoking the person's gender, because Condoleezza Rice is a
woman, and her color, because she's black, does not justify abdication of
moral responsibility. That does not make it all right or better.
If she were a Jew and were doing things that were anti-semitic and
against the best interests of people, that would also stand the same way.
This is not about color. It's not about gender. It's about policy. It's
about what choices we make as a people, about the human family and where
we're going and what we're doing. That's what this is about. KING:
And that's what General Powell said in his statement on this show.
Criticize me on my policy, but don't go back to making me a slave in the
house of a master and because I'm a good slave, I get to serve in the
house. That was taking it too far to hit him personally. BELAFONTE:
Well, I'm glad it woke him up. I'm glad it made him pay attention. I'm not
too sure that I'd have gotten on your show discussing this in this way if
these things are not happened. That was not my intention,
incidentally. I was caught in a very passionate moment in that radio
interview. And I spoke my piece. But now that it is on the table, fine, I
will continue to speak my thoughts on the subject and I will stand
corrected if I have made error, but I do believe that what I am talking
about is what is not being discussed. It is who stands responsible for the
mistakes this nation makes because it doesn't want to listen to dissent. KING:
Would you like to sit down with the Secretary? BELAFONTE:
Love to. KING:
We'll take a break and come back with more of Harry Belafonte. We'll
include some phone calls for one of the great -- by the way, little known
fact: his "Calypso" album, which really made calypso music in
America, was the first album to sell over a million copies. We'll be right
back. (BEGIN
VIDEO CLIP) (MUSIC) (END
VIDEO CLIP) (COMMERCIAL
BREAK) (BEGIN
VIDEO CLIP) (SINGING) (END
VIDEO CLIP) KING:
Harry Belafonte and a group -- he put it all together, "We are the
World." Let's take some
calls for one of the great entertainers of modern times, Harry Belafonte.
Marietta, Georgia -- hello. CALLER:
Hi. KING:
Hi. CALLER:
First of all, I want to say that I have a lot of respect for both of you,
and Harry, I just want to say that while I respectfully disagree with what
you said about Colin Powell, I am curious as to what your friends, your
family, and especially your counterparts in the show business arena had to
say about your comments. KING:
Good question. BELAFONTE:
Well, most of my friends with whom I've talked about have been somewhat
caught up in this fracas, and I think, by and large, everybody understands
what I meant, understands where I'm coming from, and they see no villainy
in it, and I think they are -- they stand by me. KING:
Were any critical of you, Harry? BELAFONTE:
Well, some thought that the public was going to have a big problem,
because the public does not come from the same kind of a sophisticated
sense of history and all the different things that I've been exposed to,
so I think people are going to have difficulty. But then, people have
always had a difficulty around the issue of race, slavery, and
plantations... KING:
Well, because many of the public would say, as you said, slavery is a great
-- as a part of American history, many would say, the farther we get away
from it the better, and referral was only taking it back to bad times. BELAFONTE:
That would be true if the playing field were equal, if it were level.
If all things were honorable. But the truth of the matter is that this
country knows so little about what truly went on in slavery, black and
white, that we're still living out its mistakes. We're still living out
its principles, we're still living out its culture in -- in very hard
ways. KING:
Indianapolis, Indiana -- hello. CALLER:
Hello. I'm calling to tell Mr. Harry how much I admire him for taking a
stand, and I'm also an African-American, and I would wonder if he had an
opportunity, would he serve politics, that he would make a difference to
us because we need somebody to take a stand. KING:
Would you ever run yourself, Harry? BELAFONTE:
Well, I was put upon once to run for the Senate in the United States
of America against D'Amato, as a matter of fact, and a lot of people
thought that I stood a good chance to make a race out of it. I stepped away from that because I genuinely believed that
the platform that I have as an artist, the work that I do with the United
Nations, sits above suspicion because I have no agenda, so to speak. I
don't serve a political party. And I thought that my service to the things
that I believe in and to this nation that I deeply believe in, was best
served by staying where I was. KING:
Did the Academy Awards this year impress you, two black Americans winning
the top two awards? BELAFONTE:
Well, I'm always pleased when black Americans are rewarded for some
achievement. I'm always very suspicious, however, and I look very carefully
at what does the award dismiss? What does it suggest is correct when, in
fact, so much is incorrect? And I think that, you know, there are a lot of
people who just said, for instance, Hollywood is not above the issue of
discussing what goes on with racism. And one day, we should get into that
debate about how blacks really think about what's going on in the culture
of this country. KING:
You mean blacks are not telling us what -- many blacks you know are not
telling us what they really think? BELAFONTE:
I'll tell you this, Larry, many black people still live out the -- the
facade of the minstrel. We wear a mask. Much of what we say and what we do
is done in metaphor, and done with subtext and other meaning, because we
have not had the best of experiences when you go straight to the heart of
the problems in this country, because this nation becomes so punitive when
it hears the truth about us. KING:
You discussed this with your old friend Sidney Poitier? BELAFONTE:
Yes, Sidney and I have talked about it from time to time. We've not
talked... KING:
He's not the activist you are. BELAFONTE:
No, he's not. Nor does he have to be. Nor does he have to be. KING:
You don't criticize him for not being as active as you. BELAFONTE:
No, no, no, no. No, no, no. I don't criticize him for not being - people
make choices they want to make. That's the point here in a way. We must be
held responsible for the choices that we make. I'm not holding Colin
Powell responsible for something about Colin Powell as -- as a man. It's
about the things that he embraces, and the policies that he serves. That's
the problem. KING:
We will be back with some more moments with Harry Belafonte on this
special edition of LARRY KING LIVE. As we go out, this is a song now that
-- a lot of youngsters hear this song, and they think it's only sung at ballparks
when the home team is winning, and they're about to put the crush of
defeat on the visiting team. It was, in fact, one of the major songs ever
recorded in this country -- here's Harry. (BEGIN
VIDEO CLIP) (SINGING) (END
VIDEO CLIP) (COMMERCIAL
BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) (SINGING) (END
VIDEO CLIP) KING:
That was from "The Ed Sullivan Show." I remember the first time
I saw Harry Belafonte on stage -- "New Faces of '52," Leonard
Sillman, "Hold 'Em Joe." Right? You were holding a rope. BELAFONTE:
No, wrong. (singing) Wrong show, Larry. KING:
What was it? BELAFONTE:
It was, as a matter of fact, a lot of people confuse it, it was
"John Murray Anderson's Almanac With..." KING:
"Almanac." Right. (CROSSTALK) KING:
Morristown, New Jersey, for Harry Belafonte -- hello. CALLER:
Hello. Mr. Belafonte, I heard you just the last segment talking about the
fact that you are against the future killing of innocent American boys
under the new -- this administration's new policy.
I'm the mother of a 23-year-old boy that was killed on -- Tower One
because he was an American citizen. I really don't see where you think
that you are -- this has happened already. Our boys have been killed.
I feel that you're talking first as a black man, as an American
secondly, and that's saddens me and I think it would be sadden all of us
-- the 3,000 families whose people were mowed down because we were
Americans trying to live the American dream. My boy was killed because he
went to work. And I just wish you would address that. BELAFONTE:
I served in the United States Armed Forces and the United States Navy
during the second World War as a munitions loader. I've also served some
of the most remarkable Americans of our century. I was embraced
with and worked for Eleanor Roosevelt, John Kennedy, Bobby Kennedy, Paul
Robeson. When you take a look at men like Martin Luther King, with whom I
marched and served, and the more recent history, people of the moral
stature, of people like Nelson Mandela.
I sit and I grieve with each and every American who lost some loved
one on 9/11. And I also sit and grieve with every American mother who lost
some son to the Ku Klux Klan. Tyranny is not exclusive in the experience
of Americans just to 9/11. A lot of people have known terror and
terrorism. It's a sad thing. And
I'm not first black and then American. I've always been and will be first
American and then whatever I happen to be, like the mosaic that makes up
this country. And
I'm sorry if what I have said and the way in which I interpret our policy
offends you to the degree you think I am ignorant of and willing to
dismiss the death and the pain that our nation feels. As a matter of fact,
quite the contrary. It is precisely the pain that I know that this nation
feels that I dread seeing us go through more of it, to lose more sons,
more daughters, because we are being ill advised on how to deal with the
ills of the nation. Deal with hunger. Deal with poverty. Deal with
disenfranchisement which is rampant among the 6 billion people who make up
this planet. I see most of them. I spent time in Rwanda where 800,000
people were murdered in a matter of months. Violence is not mutiny, it's
not new to the world. We've got to stop it and I make a plea for it.
And I hope we can find policies and thinkers and people who will
come to their senses and lead us out of this abyss. KING:
I only got a minute left but I want to ask you a question about rap music
and it uses the "N" word a lot. There's a lot of denigration of
women in music. You have any thoughts on it as a proponent of free speech? BELAFONTE:
Yes, I think it's somewhat shoddy that we're constantly evoking free
speech in the face of immoral, unethical conduct. If I had the choice of
what to do about free speech, I'd fight to the death to maintain it. Even
in the face of these transgressions.
But because there are a lot of people spinning off profit from
denouncing their mothers, their daughters, putting themselves in their
most degraded level of our social experience, and having it rewarded by
the larger society is certainly not a way of working ourselves into a
greater and more noble fabric of culture and human relationships. KING:
So, Harry, in essence, you are glad you have restructured the dialogue. BELAFONTE:
I'm very glad to have been given the opportunity to at least
explain my point of view more fully. You know, there are a lot of
"N" words and there are ways in which to deify someone or to
vilify someone like Colin Powell. That was never the intention. The idea
that you work in the house of the master is almost in itself its own
opportunity to do some mischief and to make a difference. But when you are
in that place and you help perpetuate the master's policy that perpetuates
oppression and pain for many others, then something has to be said about
it. KING:
Thank you, Harry, as always. BELAFONTE:
The master in this instance is, of course, the president of the United
States. KING:
Good seeing you, as always, and thanks for doing this. BELAFONTE:
Thank you very much, Larry, for having me. KING:
Harry Belafonte, the famed entertainer, humanitarian and activist, and his
point of view. Tomorrow
night -- I'll tell you about tomorrow night, when we return. Don't go
away. (COMMERCIAL
BREAK) KING:
In an age of crime -- and it appears rampant -- Dominick Dunne is the
always the perfect guest. Dominick Dunne will be with us tomorrow night on
LARRY KING LIVE. TO
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